Deep Listening vs Cosmetic Listening | Which One Are You Doing?

Most of us don’t listen, we just queue up to speak. That tiny shift in mindset explains so many relationship arguments, workplace misunderstandings, and those moments where you feel invisible even while someone is looking right at you. We dig into what real listening looks like when phones are out, attention is split, and “uh-huh” becomes a cover for not taking anything in.

We break listening down into four clear types: cosmetic listening (the polite pretence), conversational listening (everyday back-and-forth), active listening (where you work harder to understand than to reply), and deep listening (where you pick up on patterns, feelings, and what is not being said). Along the way we share real examples, from partners talking over cooking and screens, to the kind of careful, clarifying listening that people often only expect from therapy or coaching. We also explore practical signs in body language, such as eye contact, turning away, and posture shifts, and why timing matters if you want to be truly heard.

We also touch on vulnerability and mental health, including why many men feel put off by “we need to talk” and how a simple invitation to talk can be life-giving when it is normalised. To make it actionable, we set a challenge: try listening without interrupting until the other person finishes, and use a small physical trick to help you pause if you tend to jump in.

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Transcript

Are You Actually Listening

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi from the English Sisters. Welcome to Get Real with the English Sisters. Welcome to this episode and together. Welcome. It's all about listening. Are you listening? Are you really listening? Are you listening or are you faking it? Yeah. Hello, hello. Is there anyone there? Just waiting to speak your turn. Yeah, because often we think we're listening, but really we're not. We're just waiting to say something, aren't we? Yeah, we're not acting we're not actually really listening. Yeah, we're waiting. We're like in a queue. We're like, yeah. What are they gonna say so we can say something? Exactly, yeah. So we're not really processing what the person is saying. We're just waiting to speak our thoughts. Yeah, we're waiting. That's on a good day because most people are on there looking down at their phones and not listening at all. I know, and then you get the impression these people are not listening to me. I mean, how many times have we heard this? I know. It's so common in relationships. Are you listening to me? Are you listening? I know. And they say, Yeah, yeah, sure, I'm listening. Uh-huh. And then I sometimes I test them. What did I say then? Yeah, you test. No clue. Yeah. No clue. I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I test I test people.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Really? Well, obviously, family and friends and things. Yeah, you don't do that with me. No, because you always listen. That's right, yeah.

unknown 1:23

I don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

No, you don't have to do it with me. Yeah, I never dreamed I have to do it with you. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Only sometimes when you're really busy on your phone, but then I just don't talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

You just keep quiet. Yeah, I've seen it, yeah. I know not to talk. Obviously, if I'm working, but otherwise, like if I see you're distracted, I wait to talk. Yes. Wait for your full attention. Yeah, so that's a good piece of advice already, isn't it? Wait. Wait. Sometimes you've got but the thing is, no, this is like a different what we're actually saying here is that when you're sit you're sitting down, you've decided to go out for a meal, or you've decided to go, you're hanging all out together. Say you're with your partner or something, this is the most common thing, isn't it?

Phones And The Listening Illusion

SPEAKER_01 2:05

And then you think, is this person, you know, is is she or he or they actually listening to me? You know, there's actually four types of listening. One is called that's made me laugh. What's the four types?

SPEAKER_03 2:20

There's four types, can you believe it?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Can you believe it? There's one thing and it's called cosmetic listening, which sounds really lovely, doesn't it? Yeah, it sounds like cosmetics, yeah. But why? Because it's superficial. That's it, yeah. And it that's actually when you're pretending to listen, you're looking at someone and you may be nodding and making noises as if you're listening, saying that's interesting, yeah. Yep, mm-mm. But it's and it may not be completely obvious to the other person, but and at an unconscious level, it is. So I think that's that I think that's what people do a lot with their kids, with their children. Yes, yes. So it's just cosmetic listening. So if you actually think about that, yeah. Yeah, if you think about it as well, children sometimes they'll say, Mummy, mammy, daddy, daddy. Yeah, and you're saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll they'll notice and they'll pick you up on it, and they say, Mummy, mommy, sort of keep, you know, come back. They come back to me, come here. I know you act as if you're listening, but you're not really listening to me. Yeah, I mean, that's it's quite sad, really. Because I think a lot of us do this kind of cosmetic listening now with the phones and everything. There's so many other distractions. Well, anyway, this is one just to list them out now. So, and then there's another one, and it's called conversational listening. Now, this is conversational listening. Yeah, in general, it's when you communicate with others, we listen, we talk, we think, we listen and then we talk again, and then we think about it. About it. Yeah, we think about it. This is fine for everyday conversations because it builds rapport with people and it's an actual conversation. And you are actually listening. You are actually listening, but it's it's kind of that's another way of listening, conversational listening. Then there's another one which is active listening. Well, you're actually actively listening. Exactly. So, what's the difference from that? The difference is that active

The Four Types Of Listening

SPEAKER_01 4:30

listening is where the listener is using more effort to listen and to process information than speaking themselves. That's why it's different to conversational. Because I think in conversational listening, a lot of people are just waiting to say that's what you said at the beginning. Yeah, so they're not really listening as per se, and then active really wanting to hear what that person has said. They're more listening to just, I want to get my own point of view. Exactly. Yeah. So it's different to cosmetic, and I think maybe active listening is what like what friends do when they really, when you say, Oh, I've got that really good friend, and you can just have a really good moan at them or whatever, or tell them your problem, and then they're actually help you and and say, Look, but they're actually listened to you properly. Exactly, yeah. It's here, it actually says it the listener is actively seeking to understand what the person is telling them, clarifying via the use of questions, repeating, and then summarizing. So if somebody says to you, Oh, I'm I'm really having a bad time with my boss now. So you're having a bad time with your boss, are you? Oh gosh, what's happening? There you go. Now I feel as if you've really listened to me.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Someone's gonna tell me what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

What's going on? Well, uh my boss is uh not for example, she's she's not really listening to what I'm telling her. I'm telling her I'm I'm feeling overwhelmed at the moment, but she keeps on pushing to ask for new projects. She wants me to complete this new task when I'm telling her that at the moment I'm really overloaded with work. So I just want her to give me a break and then I'll get on to do it. Yes, so she's not listening to you, so you're overwhelmed. Yes, I am overwhelmed. How do you think you'd be able to make her understand that? I don't know. I can't I've tried to tell her, I'm telling her all the time. I'm feeling stressed, I'm feeling overwhelmed, she's just not listening to me. Yes, maybe you can sort of take a day off and just stay at home for a day, mental health day. Yeah, I think I would probably really need that. Just to gather your thoughts. Yeah, well, there you go. I mean, that's a classic example of uh uh you you actively listen to me when I was telling you, and this is this is also used in therapy, so that's why I mean, but this is also used like what you said with friends, and isn't it lovely? Friends do it all the time. That's right. If you're blessed to have a good friend who talked to. Well, that's what we do to each other, isn't it? Yes. It's not like I tell you a problem and then you just say, Oh, la de da and have like a stuff, you cosmetically listen to what I'm saying, or you sure sure. Yeah, oh god, I god that would be awful if you did that.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

And how many people do that? That's why a lot of siblings don't get on.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Sometimes my husband does that to me.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Does he? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

I've noticed it. I mean, he's got no he does. I've got really good at it now. I mean, he he kind of, you know, it's it's we've evolved in the relationship, but I do find that sometimes it's just he thinks I do it to him as well, so obviously I mean I've heard him say you've heard it.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

She's not listening, all she does is listen to you, she's not listening to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I do listen to him favour me. He does, yeah. And this is a bit of an issue here, but anyway. He does, he has a bit of a laugh about it, but doesn't he? He does, yeah. He always says anything your sister says is I'm not sure. You listen, you listen so carefully. But come on, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Because I think with your husband, what he does is he just charges in and he doesn't, even though you say he's not doing that anymore, he's learning better, yeah. But you say he'll just so you'll be in the middle of cooking or doing something or answering a query online, and he'll just blur out and then a lot, a lot, I didn't know. Yeah, all in Italian really happened today, and then and then he'll look and but aren't you listening to me?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, and he gives me all these specific details, like of these products, because it will you know together we run this also this vintage chandelier, and he also does that, and he helps another part of the business, and so he'll come and he'll give me your specific details on it, and and yes, I might be in the middle of something. So I think it's also important if you do want to be actively listened to to make sure that the person can actually schedule a time for it. Like what you said, you do it with me. If you see I'm what scheduler time? We're not robots, but you can just wait and to see if somebody's like sometimes it is good to schedule because I do that like with my husband. I'll wait for the evening meal to tell, to talk. Yeah, yeah, that's what I say. Just wait till I'm actually sitting down. Unless there's something really of utmost urgency that has to be dealt with that then and there. Yeah. But if it's something just to talk about something, I say, okay, we we we know now and we talk over over dinner for about it. Well, yeah, that's what I would like it when I'm actually sitting down, not when I'm like serving or just still fiddling around with something in the kitchen, cutting, I don't know, and then uh my back is even turned because like the other day I was actually cutting

Active Listening In Real Life

SPEAKER_01 9:55

the pepperoni, whatever that is. That's how you say in English pepperoni, in the tank peppers, the peppers, yeah. Sorry. I was I was cutting the peppers and he was just chatting, and I and I thought I can't even turn around now because I have the cutter in that position, it's on the and he was sitting at that, giving me this whole massive conversation. So I it's it is, yeah. I would I would act I love looking at people straight in the eye and having that direct contact, so I would say that that's so I think that's a part of active listening as well, looking at people in the eye, isn't it? Gosh, yeah, pro actually having eye contact. I think if you have eye contact, it is lovely. Because a person it kind of nourishing, isn't it? If you can actually look at them in the eye. Sometimes I actually say, look at me in the eye. This is turning into a personal therapy session, but it's true. You know, look and can I can I look at eye contact? Yeah, it's not the same as if you put the full football match on mute, like what he did the other day, and I was talking to him about this other podcast we'd just done, and um, and he said it's fine, it's on mute. But I said, Yeah, but you're looking at the screen. He hadn't stopped, he just muted it.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Oh no, that's no good. Is he still watching it? Yeah, he was still watching it.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

So I said, I'll wait for you to finish.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

And then when anyone comes in the room, I just pause it.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yeah, I go that it's it's different, isn't it? That's why because I think that's what I do. I just pause it and then I look at the person that's talking to me. I know that's why I do full attention. I always do that, yeah. I just pause it, but now it's almost as if good someone's come to talk to me. Yeah, well, you love be having people talk to you, so yeah, you can't wait for it. But I like it as well, yeah. But I just like to give my attention.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, I like to give my attention, but that's something that I think I think that we were good mothers because we would give our full attention.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I noticed that like Well, we are therapists, aren't we? So even before things, yeah, we'd always stop and look. Yes, yes. Look at our kids, yeah. Like say get on there at the same level, yeah, and listen to what they had to say. Yeah, yeah, really. I do think it's important. Because in the end, I didn't even really feel like talking if you're gonna be looking at the screens. I just said, Alright, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

It like me, it it like blanks me. I don't even know what I had to say.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I start looking at and I and I get distressed. Yeah, in the end, I think I said, Okay, alright. Um oh no, I actually said, Can you pause it and we'll go outside for a nice lolly? This usualized lolly thing. I go, let because it's so hot. I go, let's go outside for a nice lolly. And then when we sit there outside, you did schedule it then, kind of. I kind of did, yeah. I guess I did, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

And then he likes that because I know I can get him outside with the tree, and then I can get him to kind of really listen because you know he's uh reminds me of the uh the big bang theory I just saw at the end. What with the trees in that window? I kind of coax him out. Come on, with the characters, the one that's the one with the glasses, the lady with the glass.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

I can't remember what her name is now. She's funny.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Amy, no, no, no, not Amy, the other one, the the blonde one.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Oh, yeah, Bernadette. Bernadette.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, she says she goes, that's how good I am.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Because she she she's she put suggestions into everyone to make them do what she wants, basically, or what she thinks is right.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yeah, I think I remember that episode. I just watched that the other day. It's funny. So that's how good you were.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

You got to come outside with the treat. With the treat, yeah, because if I had something nice, just come and talk to me, he wouldn't have come.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Well, if I say let's go outside and look at the moon and the stars, but let's go outside and you can talk to me about this.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I'm gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

No, there has to be something good. Like, let's go outside and we'll have a little ice cold beer or let's go.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Talking is not good enough for him then.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Well, obviously, if we're having a big fight or something, it is good enough. Just talking about normal, common things common thing that you would like to discuss. Well no, I think it's usually accompanied by some kind of little beverage, something a bit nice. I'll say, I'll bring the coffee outside and then we'll have a chat, you know. But but I guess that's kind of normal as well, unless it's not normal, and I don't know. It's like let's it's kind of it would be I think it would be nice to to be able to feel as if you could be listened to without having to offer a retreat. Offer a treat, yeah. It would be you yourself are enough. Exactly. Yeah, just really want to listen. You have to work on that. I probably do. I mean, we have been married for 30 years, so he does listen, but he's got better at it, I'm saying. It does get better, but when it's like the English sister stuff, he's not that interested, is he facing it? He's not really that interested. That's the truth of it, yeah. It's like what we say, you know. They don't really um no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

They've got their own things they're worried about and interested in.

Deep Listening And Body Language

SPEAKER_00 15:05

They do, they like but they like it when we listen to them, they don't.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Oh god, they love it. Oh yeah. Anyway, this is the active listening. Then there's something called deep listening. Ah, I love that. And deep listening is the final category, it's like la creme de la creme.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

It's yes, it's a kind of listening without the treat.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Listening without a treat. The best coaches are often described as being kind of telepathic because of their ability to listen and to understand another person, to recognise patterns and to predict behavior, predict thoughts and really get close to the person they're helping. Their model of the world, really understand their model of the world. At this level of listening, you get a sense of what the person is not saying in addition to what they are saying. You get a sense of who the other person really is as well as what they're saying. This kind of listening obviously involves also understanding the non-verbal cues as well as the verbal cues. So, like an odd if your back is turned, involves paying for it as well. That's how bad it is. Yeah, I think you're right. It's it's a shame that you have to pay for a therapist. You have to pay to have somebody therapist. But if you think about it, what does that say about our society? That we are not taught to active listen or to be considered and taught to deep listening. Deep listening, yeah. And taught to do this. It is some of us have it in naturally innate in us, and others do not. No, and that's such a shame. But I think if we once again, as usual, if we're aware of what kind of listening are we actually doing now, like you go and meet your friend. Well, am I is it is this just cosmetic? Is it active? You know, am I actually deeply conversational listening, or am I really deeply listening to this person? And I don't think you need to be a therapist to know how to deeply listen. You just have to become more finely tuned. You obviously you have to understand the non-verbal cue. So if the person turns their head away from you when you're talking about something, they're not really interested in what you're saying. Yeah, they look down, they're breaking rapport, they're breaking, they're not looking unless they're looking up something for you. Yeah, they uh they're looking something on their phone, but they're not really, yes. That that's that's the truth of it. They're not actually, and a lot of the times, even noticing where like if they're sitting on a chair, for example, if they go back when you're talking about something, this is really obvious once you know this little the spy thing, they go back, or if they move their body all the ways, like if you're at a table, they move it right, all listening in. You can actually see sometimes, you know, like the ladies, they've got they actually move their hair and they put it past it to it's like so obvious, so that they can really listen to what you're saying. They they may touch their ears a few times. You just say ladies do this. Well, uh because it may be because of the longer hair, if it is a some man who have long hair as well, they might do it, yeah. I've noticed it more in ladies, where they actually turn their ear, they actually give you the ear. I think because we as women are more conditioned to listen as well. Yes from an early start. We're kind of like taught to listen, taught to be more patient, taught not to speak as much as well. Yeah. Probably, yeah. Yeah. That's another issue.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

We are gonna say taught to offer treats to be listened to, but maybe.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I'm gonna work on that actually. I'm gonna see if it works. I'm gonna do a little experiment. I I hope I won't be too disappointed. But if I say let's just go outside, shall we?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

I want to spend some time with you and talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Maybe if I actually said that, I want to spend some time with you, I'd probably quite like it. But then he'll say, All right, bring the drinks. I'll say, you get the drinks. It's nice. Come on, if you're sitting outside, like a cup of tea. Yeah, you have a nice something, yeah. That's kind of normal as well. We do that all the time. But we don't we say let's have our coffee outside. Yes, of course. But I mean it's not cut like it's not the treat offered first. We just it's just under implied that we're gonna get a coffee or something to have with it. Yeah, no, I'll offer the treat first. But maybe that's my problem. Maybe I shouldn't do it. Yeah, let's see what happens. Yeah, I just say let's go outside and have a chat. Probably maybe I'll try it tonight. I'll try it, yeah. Try it tonight. Try it.

Who Gets Space To Talk

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Because I think as women we are conditioned as well, that we're not really worth that much.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

We're not we're not gonna be able to do that. We don't deserve that much space to be listened to. That much yeah, that much space to be listened to. I think not just women now. I think that's a good thing. I think men like men they're true now they're uh in the mental health for men because men suffer a lot from mental health as well, as we know. Yeah. Now they're they're they're kind of there's been like a campaign I've seen it on uh on the social media to teach men to actually reach out to a friend. Let's go grab a drink and talk. I need to talk to you. Yeah, I think that's a good thing. And I think on on uh uh let's go for a drink and talk, or let's go out and talk. I need to talk. Actually specify that I need to talk to you about something. Sounds quite serious, doesn't it? Some of the comments it was saying, uh, oh, that would put me off if I had to go. Yeah, I know that's what I mean. Like maybe the the classic male guy would say, Oh god, I don't want to be frightened of talking, but can you believe it? How sad that is. Yeah, the men have not been educated to be vulnerable, no. And not being able to talk about their emotions and how they're feeling. Causes a lot of built bottled up. Because I think as women, we always chat to each other about everything under the sun, don't we? Yeah, we do. And it's really common to do, even to to to people we don't know, like in the ladies' toilets and things, we all start having a ramble about it, about lipstick or anything. Yeah. I've forgotten this at home and everything. Yeah, you could you can ramble about it. And the men find it harder to do that. I wouldn't realise they'd actually be like put off, they'd be scared. Well only one person, another one said, and we welcome it. About time. Most of them were like that. About time we need to be able to talk. Uh mental health has to become something that we can talk about. If we're feeling low, if we're feeling down, we've got a problem, we must be able to share it and talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Because maybe from with the therapist, because it's it's okay to go to a therapist, but it's also nice to bring kind of therapy into your everyday life where you can talk to people about things and help each other. I think we're all guilty of not at least, you know, we can probably do the conversational kind of listening, but we're probably all guilty of not actually actively listening. Of course. Even you know, you don't really actively listen. It's it's quite a special thing when you do get listen, act even actively listen to, where somebody empathizes with what you're trying to understand what you're saying, that's already a massive thing. Without them immediately going into what they want to say, which is what they want to or or or or like um you know making a judgment about it and saying, No, I don't you shouldn't have been doing that. You're disagreeing, and and you know, no,

Two Minute Rule And Closing

SPEAKER_01 23:10

just just listen, just actively listen to me. They say if you'll just listen to for like two minutes, and there was that that that example you have to stop, listen for two minutes for active listening, yeah, and wait for the person to actually stop talking before you say what you have to say. And how daily conversation you can try that in in your daily conversation with people, it just don't say anything until they finish talking. Yeah, trying to finish because they'll just they'll stop talking. They'll stop, yeah. I mean, if you really can't, if you find you can't do it, you can just put your tongue in between your your your teeth. No, just put it towards the top of your mouth or let it touch the roof. That's more relaxing, actually. Oh yes, that is relaxing. And it's less obvious. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it now. You can't really notice it, can you?

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Yeah, you just look better because it lifts your face.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Just allow your tongue, yeah, to touch the roof of your mouth. Yeah, and then you you won't talk, you'll you'll be consciously thinking about that for a bit, but not enough not to be able to listen actively to the other person. And then you'll notice that when it's your sometimes like when I'm with my husband and I do that, he can go on forever. He's just chatting, just talking about something. So he finds a great release in this. Well yes, but then when it's my turn to talk, yeah, and I start looking when I when I do this on purpose, like an exercise, yeah, then he'll interrupt really quickly, I notice. So there you have to say hang on a minute. When they do say, hang on, you've had your you've had your chance now. You've had your chance, let me talk. Actively listen to me. Yeah, I know. It's it's what most of us do do. We interrupt a lot to talk. Yes. Because we've got in we're we're already preparing what we have to say in our own heads without really listening properly. I mean, we all do it, I do it as well. Everybody does it. We do it all the time. Especially, I mean, obviously, when we're doing therapy, we don't do it. No. And we are highly, you know, there with the person. We've been petty. But also because we're free, yeah. Most of the time, let's face it. Yes, yes, yes. With anyone we meet. But look how everyone notices it so much. They do, they do notice it. They're like almost thrown aback by how unconsciously they can feel that energy of how we're actually listening to them. It's so amazing. Yeah, it's like this kind of they have like this instant bond and they think, I I don't really know why. You know, we we often get this, don't we? I mean, especially you know, especially when we're go around as the English sisters, no matter where we're going, if it's wherever it is, we we we will uh deeply listen to what whoever's who's ever, even if it's not therapy, you're right. Yeah, taxi driver, whoever it is, yeah, everybody. Because we love that. We love that. I mean, I really do not enjoy uh cosmetic listening, or I don't want to reage it, so it's exaggerate, but we can't, it makes us feel difficult if it's alright if it makes the other person feel comfortable. The first like the weather's nice today and things like that, or it's horrible today, but then after that, it's get down to the nitty-gritty. Well, yeah, but it's lovely when somebody actually expresses what they're really feeling, you know, or or anything. Yeah, uh so yeah, that but you do you do form a connection. This this could really enrich your life if you try and it saved a lot of marriages, hasn't it? Gosh, and it and it'll reduce your anxiety because you will become calmer when you actively listen to somebody, you'll learn so much from that person, even though you you it's quite unexpected, really, isn't it? Yeah, so anyway, we'd like to see how you get on with this deep listening and active listening. Yeah, let us know how it goes, do the test, do the test, listen until they stop talking and see what happens. Yeah, I'm gonna try it tonight.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, lots of love and smiles from the English. Oh, by the way, please follow us on uh social media as well on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

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SPEAKER_00 27:41

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SPEAKER_01 27:44

And this podcast is available wherever you get your podcasts Apple, Spotify, Google, and everywhere else practically. Bye. Bye. Bye.